Ever seen scale growth on a procumbens?

[Crazy Diamond]

Juniperus sect. Juniperus – needle-leaf junipers; the adult leaves are needle-like, in whorls of three, and jointed at the base

• Juniperus sect. Juniperus subsect. Juniperus– cones with 3 separate seeds; needles with one stomatal bandhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniperus_communis
• Juniperus communis– common juniper
• Juniperus conferta – shore juniper
• Juniperus rigida – Temple juniper or needle juniper
• Juniperus sect. Juniperus subsect. Oxycedrus– cones with 3 separate seeds; needles with two stomatal bands
  • Juniperus brevifolia – Azores juniper
  • Juniperus cedrus – Canary Islands juniper
  • Juniperus deltoides – Eastern prickly juniper
  • Juniperus formosana – Chinese prickly juniper
  • Juniperus lutchuensis – Ryukyu juniper
  • Juniperus navicularis – Portuguese prickly juniper
  • Juniperus oxycedrus – Western prickly juniper, cade juniper
  • Juniperus macrocarpa – large-berry juniper
  • Juniperus drupacea – Syrian juniper

Juniperus sect. Sabina – scale-leaf junipers; adult leaves are mostly scale-like, similar to those of Cupressus species, in opposite pairs or whorls of three, and the juvenile needle-like leaves are not jointed at the base (including in the few that have only needle-like leaves; see below right). Provisionally, all the other junipers are included here, though they form a paraphyletic group.

• Juniperus phoenicea on El Hierro,Canary Islands
• Juniperus chinensis – Chinese juniper
• Juniperus convallium – Mekong juniper
• Juniperus excelsa– Greek juniper
• Juniperus foetidissima – stinking juniper
• Juniperus indica – black juniper
• Juniperus komarovii – Komarov's juniper
• Juniperus phoenicea – Phoenicean juniper
• Juniperus pingii – Ping juniper
• Juniperus procera – East African juniper
• Juniperus procumbens – Ibuki juniper
• Juniperus pseudosabina – Xinjiang juniper
• Juniperus recurva – Himalayan juniper
• Juniperus sabina – Savin juniper
• Juniperus saltuaria – Sichuan juniper
• Juniperus semiglobosa – Russian juniper
• Juniperus squamata – flaky juniper
• Juniperus thurifera – Spanish juniper
• Juniperus tibetica – Tibetan juniper
• Juniperus wallichiana – Himalayan black juniper
• Juniperus angosturana – Mexican one-seed juniper
• juniperus ashei – Ashe juniper​
• Juniperus arizonica – redberry juniper, roseberry juniper​
• Juniperus barbadensis – West Indies juniper​
• Juniperus bermudiana – Bermuda juniper​
• Juniperus blancoi – Blanco's juniper​
• Juniperus californica – California juniper​
• Juniperus coahuilensis – Coahuila juniper​
• Juniperus comitana – Comitán juniper​
• Juniperus deppeana – alligator juniper​
• Juniperus durangensis – Durango juniper​
• Juniperus flaccida – Mexican weeping juniper​
• Juniperus gamboana – Gamboa juniper​
• Juniperus grandis – Sierra juniper​
• Juniperus horizontalis – creeping juniper​
• Juniperus jaliscana – Jalisco juniper​
• Juniperus maritima – seaside juniper​
• Juniperus monosperma – one-seed juniper​
• Juniperus monticola – mountain juniper​
• Juniperus occidentalis – western juniper​
• Juniperus osteosperma – Utah juniper​
• Juniperus pinchotii – Pinchot juniper​
• Juniperus saltillensis – Saltillo juniper​
• Juniperus scopulorum – Rocky Mountain juniper​
• Juniperus standleyi – Standley's juniper​
• Juniperus virginiana– eastern juniper, eastern redcedar

Common juniper will never have scale foliage no matter how old its the plant since its one of the 12 species with only needle foliage that exist (juniperus sect.juniperus real needle junipers), squamata in the other hand could have scales also since its in the section sabina

 

[Cable]

A coworker was gifted a little pro nana and damned if the thing didn't have a little bit of scale foliage.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Foliage changes with age of the tree. In J. virginiana you do not commonly see scale foliage until the tree is near or over 100 years old.

I don't know if this is accurate Leo. I see tons of Virginiana here in Jersey along roadsides which are quite young - 10-30yrs old with scale foliage. Maybe in colder climates where they do not have as much of a growing season it takes longer. They revert also in shaded out areas so open-field trees usually have scale foliage. Just my observation.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I don't know if this is accurate Leo. I see tons of Virginiana here in Jersey along roadsides which are quite young - 10-30yrs old with scale foliage. Maybe in colder climates where they do not have as much of a growing season it takes longer. They revert also in shaded out areas so open-field trees usually have scale foliage. Just my observation.

That is interesting, and I do not doubt you at all. I was working from memory, I did not hit any references. The only photos of scale foliage on virginiana that I had were of centuries old trees. So I just assumed centuries were needed. I did not do a survey or a literature dive. So scale foliage is possible in as little as 10 years. I'll go with it.

Key is, in the entire genus Juniperus, and for that matter the whole family Cupressaceae the capability to produce both juvenile and mature foliage as separate foliage types is pretty much present in every genus in the Family. In most genera in the family mature foliage is the principal type shown, and juvenile foliage only appears under stress or during the first growing season upon germination. THe least common state is to express juvenile foliage as the dominant foliage type. The capacity to express 2 different types of foliage is very common, to the point of being near universal throughout the Family. Hence my statement that the capacity to express 2 types of foliage is "baked into their DNA".

 

[Crazy Diamond]

Here in the nurserys The juniperus virginiana have probably 80% (or more) scale and the rest needles, in 1-1,5 meter tall specimens. We have subtropical climate

 

[SC1989]

My Nana is mostly scale. It was very potbound when I got it

 

[Japonicus]

There are lots of people who have posted on this thread they HAVE seen it happen.

So, who to believe? One guy who trying to prove a negative? Or several people who have seen scale foliage on a Procumbens?

Hello Adair. I'm plagued with it at the moment. I've changed from thinning by pinching growth tips back
to thinning by sheers. After doing it the incorrect way for over 10 years on this particular procumbens,
in 2018 I started correctly thinning. Now, now I'm still in correction mode fixing stupid resulting growth little at a time
and this procumbens needs more thinning. I thinned a little in June this year and at some point between 2019 and now
this has begun throwing scale foliage, or I've been referring to it as juvenile growth.

If I continue to thin, will it continue to display a disgruntle flare "survival mechanism" (I thought it was).
It is draining alright, no pooling, but cant remember when it was potted last.

The thick shoots of juvenile scale growth make it impossible to thin correctly at my hand with no good experience with it.
Sure I'll repot in late April next year and see where it is the following year, but what do I do with these hair balls?

 

[Adair M]

Hello Adair. I'm plagued with it at the moment. I've changed from thinning by pinching growth tips back
to thinning by sheers. After doing it the incorrect way for over 10 years on this particular procumbens,
in 2018 I started correctly thinning. Now, now I'm still in correction mode fixing stupid resulting growth little at a time
and this procumbens needs more thinning. I thinned a little in June this year and at some point between 2019 and now
this has begun throwing scale foliage, or I've been referring to it as juvenile growth.
View attachment 328622 View attachment 328623 View attachment 328624
If I continue to thin, will it continue to display a disgruntle flare "survival mechanism" (I thought it was).
It is draining alright, no pooling, but cant remember when it was potted last.

The thick shoots of juvenile scale growth make it impossible to thin correctly at my hand with no good experience with it.
Sure I'll repot in late April next year and see where it is the following year, but what do I do with these hair balls?

You can thin it. Just cut it back, taking off a little tuft here and there. Take the full tuft. Cut at a joint.

 

[MichaelS]

MichaelS doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I have seen many, many procumbens have scale foliage.

Tell me Adiar. PLEASE tell me. Why don't I get scale foliage on my procumbens? I've been waiting 40 years now. Is it still too young maybe? I want scale foliage and I want it NOW!
I have one that is quite pot bound too. Should I wait until it's almost dead in the hope that I get me scales?
What should I do?

 

[MichaelS]

I live in Spain, In our forum we had the same discussion about the Sonare so its an international theme haha. Some people argue that real sonare will have only needles other the same as here that their procumbens mixes needles and scales. So what we can learn? no much, maybe different clones or species or bad nomenclature in the nurserys as said before

Juniperus procumbens, japanese page: only talks about needle foliage

Juniperus procumbens, japanese page: talks about scale and needle foliage

Notice the second link. ''A varient of IBUKI'' (chinese Juniper) (scientific name Juniperus chinesis var procumbens) That's why it has scale leaves. It is not the true procumbens. The first is. (scientific name Juniperus procumbens)
The ''procumbens'' grown in the US seems to be a variant of Juniperus chineseis. namely, Juniperus chinesis var procumbens. Are we clear now?
Just to add... It a crappy plant.

 

[Adair M]

Tell me Adiar. PLEASE tell me. Why don't I get scale foliage on my procumbens? I've been waiting 40 years now. Is it still too young maybe? I want scale foliage and I want it NOW!
I have one that is quite pot bound too. Should I wait until it's almost dead in the hope that I get me scales?
What should I do?

All I can tell you, Michael, is that at Plant City Bonsai they have some 30 to 35 year old Procumbens in nursery containers that sit in full sun, and have never been repotted. Most of them will have a mix of scale and juvi foliage. Some will be all scale, and some will stay full juvi.

I doubt that they ever get fertilized. They’re in typical nursery soil... peat and pine bark and sand mix.

But, when they get repotted, they revert to juvenile.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I can’t believe you guys did this whole argument again.
Yes I have seen it with my own eyes. Not even on old trees. It’s not that hard here in Iowa to get them to scale foliage. At least partial- I have never seen one with full scale foliage. Not in person.
But I haven’t been looking hard enough maybe.
Again Schley’s has these for sale on their website.

 

[MichaelS]

"Adair M, post: 785531, member: 13405"]
at Plant City Bonsai they have some 30 to 35 year old Procumbens

I doubt that.

But, when they get repotted, they revert to juvenile.

That doesn't prove anything

 

[MichaelS]

I can’t believe you guys did this whole argument again.
Yes I have seen it with my own eyes. Not even on old trees. It’s not that hard here in Iowa to get them to scale foliage. At least partial- I have never seen one with full scale foliage. Not in person.
But I haven’t been looking hard enough maybe.
Again Schley’s has these for sale on their website.
View attachment 328648View attachment 328649View attachment 328650

That's not the true procumbens.

These are....

 

[Japonicus]

You can thin it. Just cut it back, taking off a little tuft here and there. Take the full tuft. Cut at a joint.

This will make many gaps. I will have to get a better close up picture of the subject
this weekend. These pictures do not show the problem well.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

That's not the true procumbens.

These are....

View attachment 328653

View attachment 328654

Maybe we are referring to different trees than you. I would want to see a close up of the foliage.
This is from Schley’s too just more juvi.

Have you seen the movie Karate Kid? That is the tree we are talking about.

Didn’t Leo say that all junipers have it in their DNA to produce 2 types of foliage?
I can’t tag him for some reason.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Would you @MichaelS agree that this is a young procumbens nana?

 

[Japonicus]

scale growth.

This is your picture from 1st post. Hows this or other areas progressing?
I took a little better pics of the growth mine is expressing which is a little more cylindrical and tighter.

Maybe mine's been going on for a longer period of time and looks even leggier over time IDK.
I don't care for it

Another neglected Juniper

Day 1 of many to come... Well, I won't show the picture of the trunk. The lichen covering it is more embarrassing than I care to divulge just now. I bought this tree in Florida on my way back from Destin at some point 10+ years ago. Never cared for the way the main trunk forks straight ahead...

www.bonsainut.com

I've had this procumbens over 10 years more like 16. Never until last year did this juvenile growth
express, until I changed my technique of thinning, and limited change at that going at it in short sessions.
I maybe got pretty busy with it last August. Have a look. There's a fair time frame on it but no big reductions in size.

This is the procumbens I asked Adair about. Sorry @Adair M I didn't mean to get a debate rekindled.
My question was not to debate but to address the actual issue. My apologies for skipping half the thread
since I was skipping debate looking for answers and I get stoked when I get the search link to work good for me

 

[Woocash]

I don’t care what this is, I think it’s one of my favourite all time bonsai, let alone junipers.

 

[TN_Jim]

View attachment 328779
This is your picture from 1st post. Hows this or other areas progressing?
I took a little better pics of the growth mine is expressing which is a little more cylindrical and tighter.
View attachment 328808
Maybe mine's been going on for a longer period of time and looks even leggier over time IDK.
I don't care for it

Another neglected Juniper

Day 1 of many to come... Well, I won't show the picture of the trunk. The lichen covering it is more embarrassing than I care to divulge just now. I bought this tree in Florida on my way back from Destin at some point 10+ years ago. Never cared for the way the main trunk forks straight ahead...

www.bonsainut.com

I've had this procumbens over 10 years more like 16. Never until last year did this juvenile growth
express, until I changed my technique of thinning, and limited change at that going at it in short sessions.
I maybe got pretty busy with it last August. Have a look. There's a fair time frame on it but no big reductions in size.

This is the procumbens I asked Adair about. Sorry @Adair M I didn't mean to get a debate rekindled.
My question was not to debate but to address the actual issue. My apologies for skipping half the thread
since I was skipping debate looking for answers and I get stoked when I get the search link to work good for me

it’s ummm...not a debate ..sorry M.S.

isn’t climate or weather a factor too, not just herbivory..or trimming?...including the microclimate we create around our trees.. @Japonicus, have you tried watering less or not watering the foliage?

for example, I put several J. procumbens into bonsai pots this year, baby them and only drench them from above to water -in development in nursery containers this was not the habit unless full on summer or feared mites -it’s quicker and easier to water a multitude of nursery pots from the base... well all that have been knives out since day one 3-4 years since getting are going rogue..I wanted to solve compact but didn’t expect this...(I know not nana but an example of another cozy needle juniper).
—fat 3 gal nursery nana definitely scale on elongated foliage in middle Tennessee and on the plateau