Juniperus chinensis sargentii

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The Southern States nursery down the street from my house has some plants labeled as juniperus chinensis sargentii in the discount pile for $14.99 a pop. They have decent trunks on them-probably 1.5". I brought one home but now I'm thinking I should go back and clean them out. Google says chinensis sargentii is a shimpaku. But I'm guessing this is not the same as itoigowa or kishu? But maybe still a good plant to work on? Can someone enlighten me on the name and differences if any? Thanks.
 

Vance Wood

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Actually Shimpaku is a sub-speceis of Junipers Chinensis Sargentii. Sargentii is not the best candidate for bonsai they tend to abandon branches and are difficult to control. Many of the old bonsai books have all the wonderful Old Junipers listed and Sargents Juniper when actualality they are mostly Shimpaku. I suppose some will come along and prove me wrong the fact remains I know of no one who has made a career of doing Sargents Junipers and many who have done the same with Shimpaku.
 

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Sargent is much more coarse than Shimpaku. Shimpaku is a subspecies or cultivar or whatever you cm all it of Sargent as Vance said. The Sarge grows thick much faster though, and I think they make Ok trees... Have not experienced them Being any more prone to dropping branches than other Junis. Probably only good for med to larger sized Bonsai though due to the coarse growth habit and the one I have does not seem to enjoy being potted down to a Bonsai container thus far. It was sending off foot long runners in years past when in a larger pot, but this season since the repot it has been growing very slow.. Maybe it just needs to get better acclimated to it's new spot.

When I get back on my laptop I can try to dig up the pics of it.
 

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Thanks guys. I guess the old saying about seeming to be too good to be true holds up in this case. I was dreaming of an army of shimpakus for $15 ea. It's rather confusing for a juniper newb actually. I've seen juniperus chinensis sargentii/shimpaku, juniperus chinensis shimpaku, and juniperus sargentii shimpaku.

I'll work with my one plant and leave the rest on the discount rack. Thanks again.
 

barrosinc

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I was about to buy some too... Kokufu ten books catalogue shimpaku as sargentii... As you said, too good to be true, sadly...
 

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Thanks guys. I guess the old saying about seeming to be too good to be true holds up in this case. I was dreaming of an army of shimpakus for $15 ea. It's rather confusing for a juniper newb actually. I've seen juniperus chinensis sargentii/shimpaku, juniperus chinensis shimpaku, and juniperus sargentii shimpaku.

I'll work with my one plant and leave the rest on the discount rack. Thanks again.
The other thing to consider here is that being so closely related, you can easily graft Shimpaku foliage onto a Sargentii trunk.. So if you have a fantastic trunk, and want to add good foliage to it later, you can always do that.
 

armetisius

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Thanks guys. I guess the old saying about seeming to be too good to be true holds up in this case. I was dreaming of an army of shimpakus for $15 ea. It's rather confusing for a juniper newb actually. I've seen juniperus chinensis sargentii/shimpaku, juniperus chinensis shimpaku, and juniperus sargentii shimpaku. I'll work with my one plant and leave the rest on the discount rack. Thanks again.

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. As previously stated, a LOT of the old texts referred to them as Sargent's Junipers.
In the most rudimentary of explanations, the correct way to annotate this is Juniperus chinensis cv. sargentii var. shimpaku
Juniperus is the genus and is always capitalized--just means it is a juniper; however, a lot aren't as obvious like Acer=Maples
chinensis is the speciies and just tells you that this is a "Chinese" juniper but this is a varied species already--ranging from some crawlers to uprights that can rival pines for size.
sargentii is the part that tells you it is of the sargents cultivars which tend to be sorta upright okay landscaping plants
shimpaku is the selection/variety arising from a previous annotated group of cultivars--a specifically different from the "run of the mill" sargents in some way--dark, dense foliage in this case.

However; if this isn't enough, you can plod through some taxonomy manuals/treatises--no fun and I am even into that sort of thing--only to find out that ON SOME POINTS
even the botanists are confused and still arguing over some plants "names" and what they should be and why. Hope this helps clear the mud down to just a cloudy murkiness.
good growing
 

Eric Group

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The Southern States nursery down the street from my house has some plants labeled as juniperus chinensis sargentii in the discount pile for $14.99 a pop. They have decent trunks on them-probably 1.5". I brought one home but now I'm thinking I should go back and clean them out. Google says chinensis sargentii is a shimpaku. But I'm guessing this is not the same as itoigowa or kishu? But maybe still a good plant to work on? Can someone enlighten me on the name and differences if any? Thanks.
Here is that Sargentii VA. It isn't a masterpiece, but I like it:
DSC01895.JPG DSC01897.JPG
 

Eric Group

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Interesting, a sargents with juvinile foliage. Thats a new one for me......
Yep, even the mature foliage on these is pretty loose and coarse, so I just live with the juvenile... Pretty much treat it like a needle Juniper with smaller needles.
 

Vance Wood

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Interesting, a sargents with juvinile foliage. Thats a new one for me......
Actually many years ago when I too fell into the pit of Sargent Juniper despair I noticed their extreme willingness to produce juvenilia foliage. If you looked at it the wrong way it stuck its thumb into is metaphorical mouth. If you used harsh language it went juvenile. Fertilize, prune, don't fertilize, don't prune, Repot, don't repot all resulted in the same reaction. Just about the time you got a branch starting to look like something the tree would just abandon the blinking thing. One day it just up and died. Oh I almost forgot. If you did not repot once ever three years it started to look really bad.
 

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Nahhh... They aren't so bad. There isn't a tree out there that doesn't come with challenges. What we do is not natural, you just have to work with what they give you, roll with the punches and make the best of it. Some deciduous have long internodes, some juniper react to our ing with juvenile growth, some flowering trees won't flower if pruned at the wrong times... Every tree has it's challenges, Sargentii is no different. If all you want is tiny, tight mature growth on every Juniper you own, these guys might not be for you. But.. they grow fast when they are happy, the trunks thicken quickly, they seem tough as nails from my experience with them and they are far more readily available that Shimpaku/ Kishu... So there are advantages as well.
 

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Thank you all for the replies. Eric, I like yours. As for grafting, it's an ok trunk but not a candidate for that. Grafting is above my current skill level anyway. I'll just grow this one and for $15 be happy to have it.
 

sorce

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Nana-dead.
Nana-dead.
Parsons-dead.
Parsons-half dead.
Sargenti-thriving.

There's my track record.
Take it or leave it!

Sorce
 

Eric Group

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Nana-dead.
Nana-dead.
Parsons-dead.
Parsons-half dead.
Sargenti-thriving.

There's my track record.
Take it or leave it!

Sorce
I have honestly found pro Nanas to be a little on the "wimpy" side compared to other Junipers. Parsons are like a tank- any weather we have here be it insane heat, or our coldest conditions= no problem for them! but they are kind of hard to develop consistent scale foliage on it seems. I see them in South Florida looking great though! Dorothy/ Cascade has some AMAZING ones! So, maybe it is the weather... Winters have something to do with it perhaps?

Shimpaku are pretty tough too it seems. They root really easy from cuttings as well which is one of my favorite things about them! The Sargentii does as well, and the faster growth rate is what makes them appealing graft subjects IMO. I have one currently where I am growing some Shimpaku together with a Sargentii cutting to get a big, twisty, curvy, crazy mess! It is growing extremely fast, and I worked on it a bit yesterday... Then my damn dog knocked it over trying to get the fertilizer pellets off it and I had to repot it (well, mash it back down in the pot and cover it with more dirt..)... Second time is season it had it's roots messed with, middle of summer... So we will see exactly how tough these things are now!
 

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I treated this one pretty harshly with a major pruning and root reduction in late July. I even tried my hand at creating a couple jins all at the same time as the rest of the work. I didn't want to take a picture of it and jinx the thing before I was reasonably sure it would live . It's growing again and is back budding a little, so I took this picture last night. I have no idea what I'll eventually do with it but I like it.

 

Eric Group

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I treated this one pretty harshly with a major pruning and root reduction in late July. I even tried my hand at creating a couple jins all at the same time as the rest of the work. I didn't want to take a picture of it and jinx the thing before I was reasonably sure it would live . It's growing again and is back budding a little, so I took this picture last night. I have no idea what I'll eventually do with it but I like it.

Looks pretty good! Might look better tilted to the left? Get some movement right off the base, get a little better balance to the whole image... Just an idea. These can grow like crazy when they are happy, might thicken up some if you let it run... Looks nice and healthy- I bet those runners will be two feet long this time next year if you let them go!
 
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