Ooh!! wow<$ ??WTF?? San Jose Juniper advice

[edprocoat]

Let me 'splain, seen a pickup at the gas station with the whole bed full of nice junipers - Ooh!!
The guy came out and I said "That's some nice junipers" and he said they are San Jose Junipers he just picked them up from a guy who was retiring from the nursery business and they were for sale and asked me to make him an offer. They all looked like they were easily worth $300 each, and I said "I really do not know what they are worth, what would take for one" he replied "How about $20" - wow<$ a lot less than I would have offered him. I took the first one at the back of the truck, they all were basically the same, trunks thicker than a coke can and very healthy plants. Now I have this giant, healthy San Jose, rootbound in a 3 gallon nursery pot and I do not have any idea how to attack this beast. ??WTF??

This is the one I took/stole for $20, its four feet wide.

New San Jose Juniper by edsnapshot, on Flickr

This is a top down view of the trunk, the orange line is where the two main trunks come off the base. I am thinking about cutting it there and making two trees out of it. I have done this on smaller junipers, cut it apart and untangle the roots then pot it, I just don't know how it would work on one this size though? Any advice appreciated, Juni's usually survive well with ample foliage and little roots but I worry about killing this. Also I usually do most my Juni massacre in the spring or dead heat of the summer, I wonder if this would survive splitting the trunk if potted this fall during dormancy.


New San Jose Juniper by edsnapshot, on Flickr

This is a top down view showing the whole thing.


New San Jose Juniper by edsnapshot, on Flickr

If I could split that trunk I would end up with two very nice trunked San Jose's the one coming off the bottom is an incredible twin trunk, the top one I would have to lose the lower trunk, and I would try to air layer it instead of just chopping it as its over an inch across.

ed

 

[Wee]

Maybe you should have bought the whole truck load at that price....? Nice material.

Brian

 

[Cadillactaste]

No advice...but great SCORE! I will be interested to see your next steps and the progress you make with it.

 

[BonsaiRic]

Hi Ed,

Great find!!

Like you, I bought a similar pom-pom Juniper for the trunk and then later decided to approach graft several Shimpaku whips to it. You can obviously get foliage back closer to the main trunks by grafting. I grafted more than I thought I would need, ~ 4 in all, because I knew not all grafts might take. 2 of the 4 took successfully. After some of the grafts took and were growing vigorously, I jinned the other trunks (which still need refinement carving). The large top jin made a great carrying handle too.

The grafting method obviously took a little longer than just styling the San Jose foliage but I'm much happier with the Shimpaku foliage on mine.

Pom-pomJuniper with Shimpaku whips grafted.


Successful grafts, deadwood needing reduction/refinement, semi-cascade style.

 

[Poink88]

Maybe you should have bought the whole truck load at that price....?

I agree.

 

[drew33998]

Looks like it may have been a topiary at one time or another. Monrovia sells alot of the san jose juniper topiaries. Nice find either way

 

[Dav4]

Don't split the trunk in two (if you want two trees, go back to the station and buy another one). Probably the best part of what you just bought is the base, some of which is still hidden by soil. Trying to get two trees from this will most likely ruin what's there. By the way, you need to take pics from the side instead of from the top for us to really see what you have there.

 

[october]

There is potential here. It is going to take a lot of work and some skillfull techniques to get this on the right path. Also, I agree with Dave, I would not split this tree. You run a high risk of killing a beautiful old specimen that you got for quite a reduced price.

I would like to offer this. I know that you like to do your own thing with bonsai. However, I respectfully suggest that you seek out a skilled teacher or workshop for this tree. Although I have not seen pics that show exactly what you are working with. I have a feeling there is great potential in there. After a lot of work, carving, wiring and pruning, you might have quite an ancient looking specimen worthy of exhibition and possibly an exhibition winner. You know how you look at those specimens that are ancient looking and are just awe inspiring. You could have one like that sitting on your benches with this tree. These are just my opinions.

Rob

 

[edprocoat]

Wee, this is too big for me I am not into large Bonsai but just could not pass this up.

Dav4, I really don't want two trees but I see no way other than just cutting one trunk completely off to make this look like anything beyond a topiary. I was thinking if I separated the trunk and only one or the other lived I would have a nice tree either way with a nice hollow at the ground to carve.

Rob, as always you gave great advice in an affable manner and I appreciate the advice but this is just a hobby to me and I have neither the time or inclination to seek a teacher.

The problem as I see this is there are two trunks that shoot off directly opposite each other, saving one for jin would be unsightly. It would be safer to just remove one trunk completely but then I would never know what might have happened.

ed

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

What do you see? What features of the tree prompted you to buy it?

Is there any reason not to wait patiently, water it, feed it, turn it around, and contemplate it until the solution presents itself? Is it bad if that process takes a year or two?

 

[edprocoat]

What do you see? What features of the tree prompted you to buy it?

Is there any reason not to wait patiently, water it, feed it, turn it around, and contemplate it until the solution presents itself? Is it bad if that process takes a year or two?

Brian that is great advice, the only problem with waiting is that I soon will be going to Florida again for my work and would be afraid to just leave it outside alone in Ohio for 5 months. Its way to big too transport, my latest thought was to ask my cousin if I could leave it either inside his garage or beside it for the winter, that way I could pester him once a week by calling him up and asking him to see if it needs water and how its looking....

ed

 

[edprocoat]

Hey ! I don't often look at peoples locations, but I noticed that two people here that responded to this thread are in Ohio. This guy has a nursery in Yellow Springs Ohio which is just 7 miles east of Dayton, I have his phone number if either of you would want one of these, PM me and I will give you the number. He did tell me they would be $35 once he sets them out of the truck, and that he was picking up another truckload of them so it seems he is willing to move them.

ed

 

[edprocoat]

I have been studying this for the last few days, this picture out of the pot and from underneath shows where this looks like two plants were planted together and fused at the base, I cleaned what looked like the joined area with the water hose jet spray.

Underview-side by edsnapshot, on Flickr

The Red arrow -- Look at where the trunk was lying on the surface and has grown a mass of roots into the soil. Both trunks have growth like this.

The Yellow arrow -- This is where the joint is, you can see where I sprayed the dirt and moss out with water. This is where I will split them as its a small joint.

I probed with a piece of copper wire and could not feel any thick roots, the root system seems to be a mass of fine roots. The top inch is so tangled it reminds me of the look and consistency of a loofa sponge.

I decided to cut off 6/10 th's of the bottom, or just over half the bottom root mass. You can see from this picture there were few thick roots, the largest being in the middle of the fine root mass which was only a 1/4 inch root and few smaller ones at the edge, its looking real good at this point.

cut-off by edsnapshot, on Flickr

After the separation. (At least there were no kids involved!)
The Smaller half, now my favorite side.

I made the cut by using the chisel you seen under the roots I cut. I did not want to saw it and destroy roots so I pounded the chisel at the indent area in the first pic where it looked fused. Then I pulled it apart saving a lot of root mass for each part, the larger part got the lions share though.
This is the planned planting angle. The blue arrow is where I plan on the soil line being. In the inset you can see where these two were indeed joined by what looked like a root that had grown into the larger section from the smaller one.


Smallside by edsnapshot, on Flickr

This is the larger section and the planting angle exhibited as before. You can see the separation site under the line. The main thick trunk continues up to the left, the foliage is covering it heavily as the front you are viewing was the top of the plant.


Bigside by edsnapshot, on Flickr

This is a closeup of the base of the large side. I simulated the plant angle in blue , I am such a tech savvy guy !


Base1close by edsnapshot, on Flickr

I think these will be fine as I have had junipers survive with way less roots and much more invasive root removal. The views of these fronts were once the top and therefore the back side has sparse foliage but that should be easily correctable if they survive as I feel they will.

I have them soaking in a heavy mix of Superthrive and water in a 5 gallon bucket for tonight and I will plant them tomorrow, that way if they do well I can aggravate the hell out of Smoke by attributing it to the Superthrive , lol I will call it "Scientific proof" The way I look at it is if it was good enough to stop them commies in WW2 it's good enough for me. I have found that soaking roots in Superthrive mix tends to loosen the roots as well as make them more pliable, although that could be the water too.

ed

 

[Smoke]

I have them soaking in a heavy mix of Superthrive and water in a 5 gallon bucket for tonight and I will plant them tomorrow, that way if they do well I can aggravate the hell out of Smoke by attributing it to the Superthrive , lol I will call it "Scientific proof" ed

....or...

You could just soak them in a B-1 solution since superthrive is the same thing......

 

[Robertji]

Ed, thanks for this post. I have had trouble finding Shimpaku juniper here in Ontario Canada and I recently stumbled upon this monster at an end of season sale at a nursery. In exposing the roots a bit it seems that there is more than one plant in here and since they are so hard to find I am thinking of trying to separate them much like you have. My other options are air layer and cuttings but if there are already enough roots attached to the section shown on the left in the second photo then maybe like you i can get two for the price of one!

I've been looking at this beast for two weeks now and yesterday i decided it was going into the ground at least till spring while i have some time to think it through.

Thanks again for another option Ed, I'll be interested to see how yours turned out,Jim.

 

[edprocoat]

Robertji, be cautious with that. I would not have tried this if I had another viable option. If you read my reasons in this thread you know that the trunks as thick as they are were ground level and moved out from each other like a "Y" or more like a "T". This piece was only $20, I know Shimpaku are usually quite expensive.

Looking at yours it seems to show three separate trunks, each with their own root system, and although they can be a pain in the arse to separate it can be done successfully. But as you have heard or read here " killing trees is the tuition we pay to learn Bonsai" I would be less likely to part with that "tuition" if I had a plant I paid dearly for.

ed

 

[edprocoat]

I cut off some 5 gallon buckets and planted these. The big one is in a 9 inch deep one. I buried the roots and thus some of the trunk to let the roots grow. I plan on slowly moving down the soil line and drive the roots deeper, eventually removing the ones that sprouted from the lower trunk at the soil..

biginpot by edsnapshot, on Flickr

The smaller one is in a 7 inch deep one. I did not get the planting angle I wanted, noticed it after all was done, maybe next year.


Smallerinpot by edsnapshot, on Flickr

Under the foliage there was so much dead stuff it had turned to soil and roots were growing amidst the branches from the trunk. Its almost like it was trying to air layer itself.

ed

 

[october]

For the first one. I would cut off the trunk on the right. It goes against the movement of the other trunk. The only way it could be incorporatd into the design, even as a jin, is if you got a branch bender/wrench like device and/or some heavy guy wiring and pulled them together. I am not sure it is possible though.

Personally, I would cut the right side off and work on creating a slant style with the remaining trunk. Something like this perhaps. It is a nice candidate for some shari as well.

Rob

 

[edprocoat]

Just a bit of an update on the smaller one. Back in late December I cut a "V" notch at the base between the two trunks an inch wide at the top and pulled them together with a turnbuckle. I then wrapped the bottom with Black tree wrap, its a cloth mesh stuff used for tree trunks as I had no raffia. I wired it together using a thick copper wire between the two trunks using the tree wrap to keep it from tearing the bark.Then late January I wired the bottom to hold it and removed the upper wire. All I have is this picture as the ones I took during that work have disappeared somehow. This picture is today, also showing where I started on my trunk bending.


Problem by edsnapshot, on Flickr

I still need to get the two trunks together, as you see its still too far apart and not in relation to the base (right trunk). I carved out a deep groove in the trunk 6 1/2 inches long at a slight curve so I could bend it and twist it some, mimicing work I seen here by Victrinia Ensor posted in a thread called "No Guts no Glory"- I think that was the name.


Carved by edsnapshot, on Flickr

I filled the cavity with a piece of 7/8's inch aluminum ground wire so it would not collapse when bent and twisted.


Filled by edsnapshot, on Flickr

I then wrapped the whole area with tree wrap. I used four 8 inch sections of heavy copper solid ground wire and wired them at all four sides of the wound and wrapped the whole mess with copper wire to hold them in place. Sorry the pics I took did not come out.
I had to move inside due to the rain, made the wife's day !

Here is what it now looks like after the bending, I was worried about water getting through the tree wrap and laying in the wound and rotting it, possibly molding up and killing the trunk so I coated the whole thing with the black emulsion asphalt sealer TreeKote to waterproof it.


Finish by edsnapshot, on Flickr

Another view.


Fini_3 by edsnapshot, on Flickr

Another side.


Fini_2 by edsnapshot, on Flickr

Final pic.


Fini_4 by edsnapshot, on Flickr

Keeping my fingers crossed that it survives this, if so I have a nice twin trunk ! I think at worst I will lose the large trunk that I carved and bent leaving the small one coming off the massive base. Either way the base angles to the left and the large trunk went directly to the right, not much else could be done with it as far as I was concerned.

I have done some work on the larger on, sort of an approach graft using thin branches growing from itself. I did this to get some growth on the bottom/back side as this being a plant that laid horizontal all the growth came off the top side. When I stood it up there was nothing on the back at all. I will get some pics up soon, if it ever stops raining here.

ed

 

[KennedyMarx]

Slick idea! Hopefully, it survives the work. I bet it will.