Nice! If you did something with the stake, would you (a) remove the stake, (b) make it higher, or (c) none of the above?

There is no Juniperus rigida 'PENDULA'.
This is the species which name is Juniperus rigida.
This species is a weeping form by itself.

The Juniperus rigida at my collection

Hi Coniferjoy,

That's just the clone widely available in the West - true it isn't named 'Pendula', but the species as a whole isn't always pendulous like that, see e.g. this one from the Chinese Virtual Herbarium

Resin

Here is a link that might be useful: Juniperus rigida at the CVH

Or this one from Japan

Here is a link that might be useful:

Interesting, I think coniferjoy's plant might be Juniperus communis 'Oblonga Pendula' ?

I think it is Oblonga Pendula too. I have always found Rigida to be upright and irregular with weeping branchlets and Oblonga Pendula to be much more bushy and mound forming, such as in this photo. However, we do not seem to have Rigida Pendula in UK: only Juniperus Rigida. Having seen many photos of what perport to be both types; I am blowed if I can tell the difference (should there be one).

Juniperus rigida at RBG Edinburgh, showing fairly pendulous foliage.

Resin

Does the latin name mean "rigid"? Or something else?

Rigid needles. Try handling some!

Resin

For sure is that my plant isn't a Juniperus communis 'Oblonga Pendula'.
I have the Dutch Plant Collection of J. communis and do have over 50 cultivars of it.
The needles of my J. rigida are longer and a lighter green and are less prickly.
All forms of J. communis can be propagated by cuttings, This J. rigida must be propagated by grafting or from seed.

My plant have the same structure as the plant at the pictures Resin shows us.
The plant at my Pinetum is about 15 years old and will be cutted back hard every year, the plant at RBG Edinburgh is much older.
What we can see is that the branches of both plants are not densely side branched as any J. communis cultivar.

The biggest difference we can see between the J. rigida and the J. communis 'Oblonga Pendula' is that the J. rigida is bold at the above side of weeping branches which branches of the 'Oblonga Pendula' NEVER are.

"Juniperus communis 'Oblonga Pendula'. ... The needles of my J. rigida are longer"

Note that southern European origins of J. communis commonly have much longer needles than those from N Europe. In e.g. Bulgaria and southern France, the needles are commonly 20mm long, occasionally up to 27mm long, which is longer than on J. rigida. The cultivar 'Oblonga Pendula' is unknown origin, but likely from somewhere in this area.

Specimen from Pirin Mts., Bulgaria:

Resin

Resin,

I agree with you that the J. communis which are growing in the south of Europe COULD have longer needles, but I never saw one with needles longer then 20 mm. exept for the one at your pictures.
Even the 'Oblonga Pendula' have needles which are between 15 and 20 mm. long while the needles of the J. rigida have needles till 25 mm. and that's why I mentioned this as one of the diffrences between both plants.
The World Checklist of Conifers mentioned that the 'Oblonga Pendula' is from the U.K.

Hi Coniferjoy,

All the herbarium specimens of native J. communis subsp. communis I've got from southern Europe have markedly longer needles than north European native plants (Britain, Sweden, etc.; needles not over about 12mm). In Bulgaria, 20mm+ needles are commonplace, and specimens I've been given from southern France are almost as long. Central European origins are intermediate.

Conversely, I'd say 25mm needles on J. rigida are exceptional; I've not seen more than about 20mm, while Adams gives "10-23mm" and Farjon gives "(7-)10-20(-23)mm".

Yes, 'Oblonga Pendula' was described from Britain, but from a cultivated plant at RBG Kew, where J. communis does not occur naturally. Its native origin is therefore unknown. Loudon describes it as resembling J. c. var. oblonga (cultivated at the Horticultural Society Gardens) "in every respect, except that the habit of the main branches is fastigiate; and the points of the shoots pendulous". J. c. var. oblonga was described by Marschall von Bieberstein (as J. oblonga) from the Caucasus, suggesting long-needled J. communis also occurs there too (similar latitude to Bulgaria etc.).

Resin

I have always thought rigida is the easiest to recognize even for a non-expert like myself. Now I am not so sure...

On the existence of rigida 'Pendula':
All my rigidas are 'regular' form similar to the pics from RBG Edinburgh in pineresin's post:
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They are ranging from 15 to more than 20 years old. The 'Pendula' form becomes available in our area in recent years. My observation is all their main branches appear more weeping including the leader branches typically similar to Ken's pic and the one in Bucholz & Bucholz's catalog:

and the pic in the ACS database.
Each of my 'regular' one (about 10 of them) always has a distinct leader without any stacking (unless you let them grow like weeds and fall over).
The pic of Coniferjoy and the one in Esveld's catalog for 'regular' rigida:

look a lot more weeping without any leaders. Could this be a desirable seedling or 'Pendula' variation?

On Juniperus rigida 'Pendula' versus communis 'Oblonga Pendula':
From the pic in the book 'Conifers' by Gelderen/Hoey Smith and the pic in Esveld's catalog:

it would seem communis 'Oblonga Pendula' branch tips are not as tightly massed, but they do look somewhat similar in closeup pic. It would be illuminating if some one can post a pic of a mature communis 'Oblonga Pendula'.

"I have always thought rigida is the easiest to recognize even for a non-expert like myself. Now I am not so sure... "

I concur. Farjon's key separates them on:
# Stomatal band wider than green margins of leaves  J. communis
# Stomatal band narrower than green margins of leaves, often hidden in a narrow groove  J. rigida

I can confirm the former normally applies, but didn't pinch any J. rigida foliage from Edinburgh so can't confirm the latter (my photos don't show it well enough). Additionally, J. rigida cones (7-11mm) average a bit larger than J. communus subsp. communis cones (5-8mm).

Personally, I reckon there's a good case to be made for recognising the S European J. communis as a distinct subspecies. And (perhaps more controversially!) maybe J. rigida should be reduced to a subspecies of J. communis?

Resin

PS dug out my herbarium specimens, measured 22mm needles on a J. communis specimen from Dordogne, and 19mm on one from south of Carcassonne, southern France.

Resin and Garcan,

Many thanks for your info!
I learnt that the original specie is more upright and do have a leader, while the weeping form is a clone widely availlable in the West.
This remind me also of the Picea breweriana which we have in cultivation, it does weep more then the wildform.

Resin,
You must be very proud to your herbarium, it's always easy to use in situations like this to fall back to.
I never saw Juniperus communis with such long needles, I hope some day to receive a plant with this discription for my collection.

Garcan,
For you I found a picture of a mature specimen of Juniperus communis 'Oblonga Pendula'

Yep, a herbarium is a useful thing to have!

A correction to something I posted earlier, Juniperus communis var. oblonga Loudon is not the same as Juniperus oblonga M.-Bieb. - seems the latter is a synonym of J. c. subsp. alpina. So J. c. var. oblonga Loudon is also unknown origin.

Resin

There is a collection of at least 5 supposed "Juniperus rigida" grown from seed in the Howard County, Maryland garden of a collector. They are all over 20 years old. They vary in degree of weepiness, and sharpness of needles. Some are bordering on being hypodermic needles, but one I remember was totally safe to caress and stroke with one's bare hand either with or against the "grain" LOL. (ok, I'm being a bit cheeky...)

I point this out because I think standard practice is not to grow the plant from seed. The person was friends with the likes of Barry Yinger and the seed could well have been collected in its native habitat although I do not know that.

If they were grown from wild-collected seed, their identity (as J. rigida) should be very reliable. If grown from seed from a cultivated specimen in MD, then there's a risk they'll be hybrids with local J. communis.

Resin

Right, that's why I said the binomial name in quotes. None of them looked like hybrids though. The soft one had needles that looked like the others, they were just less pointed and more flexible.
Curiously, I have a "less spiny" Juniperus formasana from Camellia Forest that to me seems more spiny than the Juniperus rigida pendula I ordered from Woodlanders!

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.camforest.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_17&products_id=333

to much of the history of gardening in the last 50 to 75 years .... as all the old farts pass on to the great garden in the sky .. is being lost ...

the oral histories were passed to the next group of friends ... who never bothered to write it all down.. and now those folks are moving into their 70' and 80's ... and when they are have moved on ...

all will be lost ...

i appreciate coniferjoy's passion ... and am impressed by what knowledge he holds.. and i cut him a lot of slack on the use of english which is not native for him ... i suspect all to often... that we think he is being overbearing.. or argumentative... but i just dont see it that way .... when i look between the lines...
all that said.. i am not running out and changing all my labels as he so often says ... but i do make a note on my data base .. along the lines of AKA ... 'also known as' ...

anyway ...

have a great day ...

ken

ps: and no.. he didnt pay me to write this.. lol ...

Coniferjoy,
Thanks for pic of Juniperus communis 'Oblonga Pendula'. It looks like the same pic in the book I mentioned in my previous post but the caption is a little different.

pineresin,
Do the pictures in this link illustrate the Farjon's key that separates rigida and communis? :
http://www.plantsystematics.org/cgi-bin/dol/bh/tcf_term.pl?genus=Juniperus

"Do the pictures in this link illustrate the Farjon's key that separates rigida and communis?"

Yes, they do show a narrow stomatal band on J. rigida. Caveat: all their J. rigida photos are of a single cultivated plant, examination of a range of wild specimens may show more variability.

Resin

Hello, I'm trying to locate a nursery in my area that has Juniperus rigida 'Pedula' in stock...can anyone help me?

Sincerely, Mellow
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Mellow,
It is listed in the catalog of Vineland Nurseries at Vineland, Ontario.
Although it is not listed in the catalog of Whistling Gardens near Brantford, Darren may be able to get you one.

Garcan,

Many thanks, I've been looking a long time, I'll check out both locations,

Thanks again,
Mellow