I'm not sure how to interpret what you say. Having EARLY bud break seems to be considered a major cause of "winter damage" in maritime climates, being a complaint leveled against certain firs, for example, by UK reference books. Also somewhat confusing because I don't know if that is burnt foliage or new growth, given what you've said!

Are you saying that in spite of breaking bud so late - when obviously new growth won't be damaged - its foliage is damaged by a typical winter there? That is interesting because there are large ones at NCSU that didn't seem hurt by the first polar winter, when they hit 7F which doesn't seem so bad but caused a lot of damage in what is essential a zone 8 garden. I was glad I saw some large ones because I found them quite boring. It's always a relief to find out there's no reason to be compelled to grow something ;-)

At any rate, yes, starting growth in July seems absurdly late. Some of my conifers will actually start a 2nd flush of growth in July, if we've have a wet year.

The bronze color is natural new growth for Keteleeria. Some small ones down near Mobile, AL, started growing in April, but they barely got enough cold to go dormant.

I'd assume conifer50 means damage from overwinter cold....

My firs here in a frost hollow are prb'ly never going to do much as their emerging buds are consistently destroyed by frost in May & growth afterwards is pathetic or non-existent. Spruces & pines are not bothered....

David, it's the winter temps that damage my Keteleeria davidiana, primarily top sections. I had a K. evelyniana that was constantly winter killed to "ground zero" but would vigorously shoot up new growth to maybe 5'. I eliminated that "problem" permanently!

Also, I noticed most of my Mexican White Pine species are just beginning a second flush but I've learned to hold back on any fertilization to eliminate lack of stem and bud hardening.

Beng, Have you yet determined which Abies will pass the "frost test" in your locale?

Well K. davidiana is obviously the hardier one, as that's the one (not 'ones'!) I saw at NCSU:

https://jcra.ncsu.edu/horticulture/our-plants/results.php?search=Keteleeria

Conifer50, I have concolor, Himalayan (holophylla) and Nordmann firs & they all suffer -- they have zero tolerance of late frosts. Whether some other firs might have tolerance, I don't know and kinda tired of dealing w/them.

didn't know holophylla had that common name - the Himalayas are well over 1000 miles away from NE China, Korea, and region around Vladivostok, Russia.

Yes that one is Manchurian Fir. Himalayan Fir is A. spectabilis.

Indeterminate style branching, with associated multiple growth flushes continuing late into the season and outer stems remaining immature despite autumnal cooling and decreasing day length are hallmarks of trees and shrubs not adapted to cold climates. Most familiar example in eastern North America is Lagerstroemia indica. Appearance and described behavior of Keteleeria shown here, in addition to Gymnosperm Database depiction I linked to above imply it has similar programming.

I've tried one or two species in this genus here in USDA 8 and also had them burn up after a few years.

Wasn't it a Keteleeria that was infamously harvested from the UW arboretum a few years ago? By some stoned miscreants looking for a free Christmas tree?

Yes it seems like one was cut for Christmas some years back. Currently the on-line database shows only a single accession for the genus, dating from 1998. "Inquire" in the Map Location field implies it is not planted out in the Arboretum, may perhaps even be growing in a container at C.U.H. And presumably being overwintered under cover.

http://depts.washington.edu/uwbg/gardens/BGBase.php?txtSearch=keteleeria&submitedits=&_submit_check=1

Been on vacation & obviously made a boo-boo -- as the boy sez A. holophylla is Manchurian fir. Whichever -- my frost hollow is not going to support a fir unless there's one adapted to low-lying frost-hollows instead of well-air-drained mountain slopes.

As an aside, of my oaks, the only one that really suffers from the late frosts is Q prinus -- rock chestnut oak, a mountain "specialist". The other oaks are only superficially damaged or come out so late as to be unaffected.

No problem, I just wanted us all on the same page about which plant you were discussing.

Here's my little A. holophylla -- hardly grown in 4 yrs because of the frost damage. It has absolutely the sharpest needles of any conifer I've experienced -- blue spruce or even china fir are nothing in comparison:

Interesting! I am certain I've seen a holophylla or two, and don't remember that trait. Maybe the adult foliage is different from the juvenile.

I'm curious are standard early spring magnolias (M. X soulangeana, in other words) very problematic in your area? Sounds like you are in a very bad spot for late freezes. In the suburbs of DC, it seemed like they are effective roughly 1/2 of the years, but of course it's been a while since I've lived there. When I was a kid one of my gardening mentors was a Belgian lady who was very proud of her M. X soulangeana and apt to get upset when it froze, so I sorta remember how often that happened. (I partly got the gardening bug by being a paid weeder and mulch spreader for a couple semi-serious gardeners) I cannot tell a lie: the chilly springs are one of the best traits of my microclimate. I have sometimes driven almost 2 hours north and seen that the springs in Mercer Co. NJ and Bucks Co, PA, will be further along than mine. BBoy doesn't believe me but the local soulangeanas have only burnt 1 or 2 out of the 10 past years. (sadly, that doesn't mean people have the sense to plant them very often.)

David, my frost-hollow is very local -- only in my "bowl" at the base & entrance of the stream gap in the mountain. My general spring climate is in fact chilly, but it's the very late frosts in mid-May that do the damage to some trees -- others aren't bothered much, like bottomland-adapted trees, except Amer sycamore, which seems easily damaged.

I know of a very large soulangeana in Funkstown, MD w/a warm microclimate (against a south-facing wall) that nevertheless has wilted/blackened blossoms about every other yr. So your microclimate must be particularly late-frost-resistant. One planted on my location would never bloom well.

This confirms that the leaves of Abies holophylla are "spine-tipped":

http://www.conifers.org/pi/Abies_holophylla.php

South-facing wall - if sunny - would be bringing the one magnolia on earlier without conferring frost protection.

Yeah well like I said, every other year is pretty typical for a random spot in the mid-Atlantic. Sounds like your problem is centered around cold air drainage, which also relates to your winter lows. How bad have they been? During the more radiative freezes of the polar winters, I saw on Weather Underground that the highest spots in Lancaster County, hilltops around 700' in elevation, were staying in the + single digits. Barely. The creek bottoms down along the Conowingo 'Pond' as it is called, were the worst, dropping down near -10F in some cases. Of course that all evened out during the advective freezes when the wind was blowing like a banshee all night, when everybody up there was around 0F, and lower elevation spots might have been a bit warmer. I felt very lucky to stay above 0F for both polar vortex winters: vast swaths of the Delmarva Peninsula went below 0F. Anywhere that wasn't 5 miles from the coast, probably.

In any case keep us updated and give it a chance; I do not think it is past the realm of possibility that it can undergo a genomically-imprinted adaptation to starting later. Like the hollies or Osmanthus that change leaf shape.

David, just got down to 49F the other morning & that is not unusual in mid-summer. A good example is the morning (w/dead calm winds) after a massive snow in 2011 when overnite lows were predicted to be 0 to 5F, and that was the case at nearby spots, but my min-max thermometer read -8F.

I have had a seedling of this cultivar for about 3 years now. It is growing well and the new growth is spectacular ! It has done well through the winters much better than the Glaucous form I have.