how about a pic of the bed .. to cut down the 40 million other questions i dont feel like asking this morning ... lol ...

may as well throw in big city name... soil type.. drainage ... winter winds ... protection from such.. etc ...

understand.. as trees ... these will never stop growing.. in your lifetime ... size estimates are at 10 years.. and you can predict at 20.. they will be twice as big ... that is tree time ... but hey.. if you get something to live 20 years... and then remove it because its too big.. sounds like a good investment over time ...

and just out of curiosity.. why xmas tree shaped ... there are other options if width is an issue ...

welcome to the conifer forum ....

ken

Thanks for your response! We are currently in the process of excavating several layers of landscape fabric and rubber mulch that the previous owners of the house had installed in the garden bed so I don't really have a good picture of the area yet, but I'll try to add one later. The bed is about 15'x20' in size.

The nearest big cities are Minneapolis & Saint Paul. Soil on that part of our property is sandy-silt, slighty acidic, and well-drained. It is fairly sheltered from winds due to its position in relation to our house.

Thank you for your clarification about growth rates, and I'd definitely be thrilled to get twenty years out of this investment.

As for the Christmas tree shape, just an aesthetic preference and wanting something to act as a focal point in the garden. I do also want to include some smaller dwarf conifers, maybe globular or spreading, but because there is nothing in the bed currently I thought it would be best to select my "Christmas tree" first and then design around that for my other selections.

Are deer an issue?

tj

Yes, we do have a lot of deer here (I'm in a rural area backing up to a forest).

i dont care if the bed is done and looks pretty.. i wanted to see house.. lawn.. etc ... the general setting ...

soooo... god bless prior owners... but will you ever.. in the entire rest of your life... use landscape fabric or rubber in the garden ... crikey.. its entirely against nature ...

junkie.. how far is he from you ... is this a 'if i can grow it.. she can grow it' type of situation ... i get all mixed up in my geography after a couple hundred miles of flat land covered with cows.. lol ...

ken

C’mon Ken, everyone knows Illinois is the flatlands. And Wisconsin is hillier than lower Mich from what I’ve seen and where B is, its even more so. A lovely area but a good zone and a half colder than I am. More like Maackia’s area.

I might stick to either Picea glauca/omorika or Abies balsamea for the cold tolerance but I can’t speak to the deer issue given even if deer don’t eat it, they still can be a buck rub target.

tj

you do know xmas trees are sheared into that shape ... and most every babe plant you buy in that form.. will grow up to be rather ugly regular looking trees ... unless you keep shearing them ... which is anathema to most of us ... but if it floats your boat.. all the better ...

ken

Pinus cembra

Thank you to everyone for your suggestions. Here is a picture of the garden bed in its current (dismal) state.

As for deer resistance, should one expect these dwarf cultivars to perform similarly to their straight-species counterparts or not? I have seen White Spruce listed as a relatively deer-resistant species, so maybe the 'North Star' is my best option.

I am definitely not expecting the tree to have a perfectly manicured look like something off a Christmas tree lot; rather I just want something with a pyramidal growth habit. I'm certainly not intending to shear the tree.

I think ’North Star’ will outgrow that spot in 15-20 years. Were it my house I might go with something more narrow like Picea glauca ’Pendula’. How about a pic showing more of the house so we can get a feel for how the bed and the tree relates to it.

tj

Here are some more pictures:

your pics tell a different story than" large garden bed in front yard "

but 8 ft. or less is accurate

Picea glauca 'Pendula is nice

Picea engleman ... ' Bush's Lace' is nice , and would fit for LONG time .

ron

from ACS database

i would figure out how to make that bed flat... either with more stone.. or retaining wall ... a future project ... you can still plant the conifer in a mound at the future height of the bed ... and the wall work could be done within 3 years .... watering on a hill is hard.. especially with new trees that need water to soak in deep thru the root mass planted ... before it flows downhill

if will also make you house look better ... more solid in its sight ...

and i would plant any of the suggested.. as far away form the house as possible.. in that bed ... plan for the future ...

finally.. small plants get established faster.. and can outgrow larger transplant in a 5 year period... and all suggested plants are available mail order ... dont limit yourself to bigbox

check out the link for diy guide .... note section one

ken

https://sites.google.com/site/tnarboretum/Home/planting-a-tree-or-shrub

Thanks again everyone for your suggestions! I have been taking them to heart and am now looking into smaller dwarf conifers for that front garden bed, even if it means sacrificing on the pyramidal shape. We have 2.5 acres so I'm sure I'll be able to find more appropriate spots for those cultivars I was interested in elsewhere in the yard, farther away from the house. I guess I was overestimating the size of that particular garden bed - as a recent urban-to-rural transplant every space looks huge to me!

Any opinions on the 'Blue Teardrop' Black Spruce, the 'Caerulea' White Spruce, the 'Paul's Select' Norway Spruce, or the various Pinus Cembra cultivars (such as 'Tip Top' and 'Silver Whispers')? I'm thinking that the Norway Spruce might also have the same issue of growing too large for the space in 15 or so years, but some sources have the mature width listed as only 5-6 feet. The other cultivars I linked seem to be smaller/slower-growing, but please correct me if I am wrong about that!

Thanks as well for the suggestions of the Weeping White Spruce and the Bush's Lace Engelmann Spruce - I like both and am planning to use one of those two in a different garden bed in my side yard.

Another question (sorry for so many questions) - I've noticed that for a variety of conifer species and cultivars I've looked at, different sources list different minimum hardiness zones. For example I've seen conflicting information about whether Weeping Alaskan Cedar, Oriental/Caucasian Spruce, Subalpine Fir, and Korean Fir are hardy to Zone 4 or only to Zone 5. Is there a definitive source for this you'd trust over others?

Thanks again!

My neighbor had a dwarf mugo pine in his yard (Minneapolis). It meets most of your requirements, wasn't very big, although it was more rounded than pyramidal.

never too many questions...keep asking ...keep putting in plants

we would like nothing more than to see you stuff that 2.5 acre full

have you checked ACS database ?

ron

link to follow

argenteospicata

for instance

zone 4 but must protect from wind

Thank you for those links - I will now use the ACS website to determine hardiness zones rather than the various retailers that contradict each other. That garden from your second link is quite impressive and inspirational!

One thing I'm slightly confused about is that the ACS website lists the straight-species versions of Cupressus nootkatensis, Picea orientalis, Abies lasiocarpa, and Abies Koreana as being hardy only to Zone 5 but they list some of the cultivars of each as being hardy to Zone 4 or even to Zone 3. Is it normal for cultivars to vary in hardiness from their parent species?

Thanks again to all who offered their advice in this thread. I'm now leaning towards using an 'Archer's Dwarf' White Fir (Abies concolor) for this spot. In Gardening with Conifers, Adrian Bloom lists a 10-year size of 3-4ft. tall & 18-24 in. wide and a long-term, ultimate size of 16-26 ft. tall & 8-10 ft. wide for this cultivar. Have any of you grown 'Archer's Dwarf' and if so, do these sizes sound accurate to you?

Also, what understock is best for this and other fir cultivars in the Upper Midwestern climate?

Thanks again for your help!

Abies concolor would be a good understock. You do not want Abies firma if it is offered (not hardy enough).

tj

OH man ,you are using Adrian Blooms book !!!! YOU ARE GOING TO BE HOOKED

that did it for me

ron

I don’t know anything, but we put a Serbian spruce (I think picea omorika), nana, in the foundation bed of our zone 4b Wisconsin house, and I love it. Conical and cute and found it at a local nursery.

Nana should not be conical

although , they say after many years , it turns so

ron

the round one right in the center

Interesting. Mine was.

Maybe the garden center had them all labeled incorrectly? Or I’m remembering the species wrong?

They do throw up a leader, some sooner than others.

https://conifersociety.org/conifers/picea-omorika-nana/

After 17 years mine is 7 feet wide and 10 feet tall.

tj

Just got back from the garden center. Considering where I can put one at my current house!

Is that Cottage Grove Nursery in West Salem? That's where I bought mine a couple years back. I've experienced some deer browse on it, but overall a very nice conifer. Did you buy one?

It is. But I didn’t get one. Need to find a spot first! I like to get there early in the season to get first pick, but it’s a bad time of year to shop…. Like grocery shopping when you’re hungry!

Those aren't Nana

Edit; ok so tj's link shows variability , but to start out narrow like that ...don't think so

ron

You think they are labeled incorrectly at the store?

'Nana' can be quite variable in form and it does assume a very conical appearance with age. Google some images and see. I would not immediately assume it was mislabeled.......

'Dwarf' in respect to conifers only means it grows more slowly than the species.

I think some dwarf farm of Abies homolepis or Abies nordmanniana would look beautiful!